Information

[lilkoala3]

 Ok, well then, I guess I'm off to bed.  Nighty night!

[AnnOminous]

 Ok, well then, I guess I'm off to bed.  Nighty night!

On that I can agree!  Don't let the bed bugs bite!!!   

[imwickedwitch]

  I just want to tell you that to me (and I might be the only one that thinks this!), I think that sometimes your words can be disrespectful. 

I usually just read the debate threads and sometimes smile and shake my head but I have to say on this one that's it's not just you, Leslie.  Reading through some of the posts I actually gasped at the derrogatory tone of the comments to doglady.  Certainly NOT conducive to constructive deabate.  I'd say more but...

"Politeness is the art of choosing among one's real thoughts."    ~Abel Stevens

[PezKat]

 I know relatively nothing about this issue.   Obviously everyone involved has strong feelings and speaking as someone who myself often lacks tact, I can see Leslie's point about how Ann has worded some things.  But of all the things did call doglady out on, I found it interesting that she didn't mention the issue of someone not currently active on the board (as doglady stated herself) coming on purely to post an activist-type opinion/call to action.  Given that 'environment' of doglady's post, I stand behind all of Ann's 'corrections' of her alleged facts.  FWIW, anyway.

I did see an article recently on an agriculture-related board about how this legislation could affect farmers in very serious ways as well. Obviously a topic that has wide-ranging impact and for which there are no easy answers.

[nene]

 Cool. A dog fight instead of a cat fight.

[ShellyBob]

 I've got the kibble..........

[doglady]

 I never meant to start an angry debate.  I was just hoping we could speak of solutions and though mine may not be the best I am trying to start a dialoug.  I used to be very active on this board and began posting again in the last month.  There are many who know me here.  I was busy getting a national breed rescue started.  I have not bred a litter myself for over 5 years because I've been to busy finding homes for dogs that have been dumped.  You can check this out on
www.peruvianincaorchidrescue.com We are not open yet because we are waiting for 5013c paperwork. 

I love all dogs no matter if they are purebreed or not.  I just don't want to see 400,000 dogs put to sleep in my hometown nor do I want to see legislation enacted that would drive my breed to extinction (they were almost extinct 24 years ago when I started in this breed).  When we used to debate issues here they were always done on the issue and did not become personal. It was a fun forum.  It is sad that it has turned nasty and that other posters would say I am not welcome because I have been inactive for a while.  I honestly thought when I read Ann's post about the legislation in OK that we would be both allies on this issue.   

[ShellyBob]

 Yeah, I didn't see why you were being called out for posting DogLady.  I'm sure everyone would like to see something done about the puppy mills and the dogs in shelters.  It looked to me like you were just trying to raise awareness to the problem.  I think the more people KNOW about puppy mills the more people won't purchase from them.  Hopefully some of them will then go out of business as it won't pay for them to keep breeding when no one is buying from them.  I don't know the "solution" or pretend to know as much as you or Ann, but it is obvious that something needs to be done with overpopulation and puppy mills.

[ScrapGoo]

Absolutely keep posting doglady!  Your opinions are as valid as anyone elses and I would hate for anyone to feel that they are not welcome.

[DiHickman]

Do you realize what no breeding at all by anybody for 5 years would do? You would pretty much wipe out all dogs breeds!! Ideally a female dog should not be bred until she is two years of age. Breeding at age 7 is risky and at age 8 is dangerously risky. Past that a female dog is probably not going to be fertile. Yes, female dogs do go through menopause. Please do the math. You stop all breeding right now for 5 years and in 5 years you will only have a very small number of female dogs ages 5 to 7 who can be used for breeding. You have also seriously and dangerously narrowed the gene pool.

As far as letting spayed/neutered dogs compete in conformation shows, there really are not that many people who want to do it. AKC is getting desperate enough for money that it may one day be allowed. Spayed females in coated breeds have an unfair advantage. They grow a lot more coat.

And FYI, AKC has just announced a new program that effective October 1st will allow spayed/neutered mix breeds to compete in AKC agility, obedience and rally competitions. It is the money from agility that is largely responsible for keeping AKC afloat nowadays.

And a very large number of those dogs in shelters are not coming from breeders who register exclusively with AKC. APRI, CKC and AKA are the ones registering dogs from any breeder without any inspections as to record keeping or kennel conditions.

This can be a heated topic as we all have our personal opinions on the subject. My
opinions are my own, others have theirs. It's important in any
discussion/debate to appreciate the differring points of view and treat
them with the respect we would hopefully give each other in person. Obviously like I said in my head in my personal world, no dog would be ownerless, all dogs would be loved. The 5 year thing was a ball park figure not meant to be taken quite so literally! Sometimes this is the problem of debating on forums, you lose inflection, suggestion and other personal traits that would be noted if a real conversation would be taking place. All I meant is that breeding needs to cease for a period of time to reduce the overall population in the short term while we create some legistlation to prevent the current overbreeding and and reduce the shelter population.

AKC have allowed spayed/neutered dogs in agility for a while now (trust me I know this cos one of mine is spayed and been registered so they can compete in AKC**), the addition of the mixed breeds is I beleive the change in the new program. The USDAA has allowed mixed breeds in agility for a long time (since it's conception I beleive but don't quote me). The AKC is playing catch up in the agility field, unfortunately I think it's too late.

Sorry but a large number of dogs ARE coming from AKC and other breeders etc.I lump them all together because essentially they are all the same, again you may have a different opinion, my opinion is that they are essentially the same. They are breeders intent on breeding for conformation which IMO is an outdated standard for the breeds and nothing but a beauty pageant. They breed litter after litter to produce the "perfect" dog for the beauty pageant. But what about the others in the litter which need homes? Or aren't suitable for breeding? I've seen champions bred that produce pups with many health problems, conformation proves NOTHING about health! IMO this is why agility/obedience etc is so popular now. I personally would love to see agility taking the place of conformation. Agility is about health. All dogs can compete. Lineage proves NOTHING. Conformation proves nothing, except that on certain days your dog was prettier than other dogs in a judges opinion. I compare agility and conformation as the Olympics and Miss World type contests of the human world. I'd rather be an olympic winner than a beauty pageant winner anyday!

Personally though I would rather have a smaller number dogs used
for breeding, I'd rather there be fewer dogs on the planet and those
few dogs treated with love and respect rather than the situation we have
now. The problem is anyone and everyone can decide to breed their dogs

Again in my personal opinion, something does need to happen to have a nationwide effect on the amount of breeders producing puppies when millions are euthanized each year in shelters. I think we can all agree that this is a situation that is NOT right! SOMETHING needs to be done. A dog is a lifelong commitment yet often the first thing to go when the going gets tough. I've worked with rescues and seen things that honestly left me in tears each week I did my shifts. In my personal world anyone considering even owning a dog would have to pass a test and have to work 'X' number of hours in a shelter before they could get a dog. But then in my world, 24/7 backyard dogs wouldn't be allowed either We have tests for driving, acedemics and a whole host of things, yet we give out living beings to whomever has the money to buy one.

As I said before, personal opinions are just that. No-one is wrong if their opininion is their own. If their opinion is formed on misinformation well then all you can do is present the information to them and hope they read it and re-evaluate their opinion. But no-ones opinion is better than anothers, it's just different .


Di

** wanted to add that both my dogs are spayed and both are shelter dogs, but only one competed in agility the other had no interest in it, she's content to be a couch potato, yard protector and walkies dog. The other one however LOVES agility and would do it till she pukes, literally, one day she ran around puked then wanted to go again. Naturally I didn't let her. She's not the smartest in the bunch but she loved it. We don't compete, we do it for fun.

** ps don't get me talking about my own dogs, we could be hear all week

[DiHickman]

 Doglady - certainly keep posting, you are more than welcome at ACOT! I would hate to feel anyone didn't feel welcome here! As a fellow rescuer I am waving Hi. Our opinions may not be exactly the same but I can respect yours and hope that everyone else feels the same about each others.

[imwickedwitch]

 But of all the things did call doglady out on, I found it interesting that she didn't mention the issue of someone not currently active on the board (as doglady stated herself) coming on purely to post an activist-type opinion/call to action.  Given that 'environment' of doglady's post, I stand behind all of Ann's 'corrections' of her alleged facts.  FWIW, anyway.

Seriously?  Just because you don't post for awhile means you cannot post an issue you feel strongly about in the DEBATE forum?  It seems that logically, relatively new posters would be included in that.  What's the magic number of posts that gives one the right to start a topic in the debate forum?  Or is it the number of years one has been active here? 

I say post away but there's really no excuse for rudeness and personal attacks.  I stand by my agreement with Leslie's comments and if anyone else differs that's cool too.

Oh, and Shellybob...If you've got the kibble, I've got the bits.

[AnnOminous]

 I'm not going to repeat DiHickman's entire post as it is so long, but this is in response to it.

You lump comformation breeders in with the puppy mills and large scale commercial breeders, claiming they are all the same, that they are all trying to breed the perfect show dog and producing cast off puppies that wind up in shelters.  First off, the puppy mills and commercial breeders have no interest in comformation shows.  They are not producing for the show ring.  They are producing strictly for the pet market.  Since Hunte Corp did start offering slightly more money for puppies from a champion parent, a few have sent dogs out on the show circuit.  Mostly they tried to buy champions or use them for stud service.  Yes, there are some conformation breeders that also USDA lisensed because they do produce that many puppies, but they are in the minority.  Doglady's suggestion of policing our own is a good one; however, there are limits as to what can be done.  Those breeders usually do not belong to the parent breed club or any AKC dog club.

You have a very one sided negative view of conformation.  There is basis for your view, but you do not see the whole picture.  Not every conformation breeder is as you have described.  There are a large number who breed for the whole dog who can do everything.

I will focus on agility, since you are most familar with it.  AKC has always allowed spayed/neutered dogs to compete in agility.  The dog that is the top winner in agility has to be structurally sound in order to get there.  They might not have the perfect head or the perfect bite or earset for conformation, and they might not meet the height requirements, but otherwise the rest of the body is pretty close to the standard.  There is a buff cocker spaniel that competes on the Texas agility circuit named Sterling (or at least he used to - I haven't seen him at my club's most recent shows).  Sterling is a sweetheart.  His tail is constantly going.  You can tell he is very happy to be at an agility trial.  He usually has clean runs.  Yet Sterling does not have his MACH title.  He usually has too many time faults.  For all his attitude and willingness to do it, Sterling just can't run fast enough because of his physical structure.  Sterling is "high in the rear".  That means his rear end is higher than his shoulders.  In Sterling's case quite a bit higher, very noticible to even the novice looking at him.

You ask what happens to the puppies in the conformation litters that aren't show quality.  Most of them go to loving pet homes.  I got a call last year from the owner of my champion Melody's litter brother to let me know that he had passed and to thank me for the 12 wonderful years they had with them.  Some of those other puppies also do agility.  Melody's half-brother Spunky, litter mate to champion Sean and major pointed Joanie, earned the NA and NAJ agility titles.  A lot of the top agility cockers in the country have come from the breeders of Melody's sire, who in addition to being a breed champion was also a CDX, TD and OA.  Melody's own daughter Piper, littermate to champion Riki, is a UD, TDX, RX, OA and OAJ.  Piper was going to be shown in agility excellent class by another handler due to her owner's knee problems, but then her owner suffered a stroke.   The dam of Melody's sire, her paternal granddam Maeve, is a breed champion, UD, TD and also AX and AXJ.  Maeve did not even start agility training until she was 8, competing until she was 9 and earned all her agility titles in one year.  From her second litter there was at least one MACH, I think there were two, that earned invitations to the AKC agility national championships.  Maeve's grandkids and greatgrandkids have also earned MACHs and invitations to the championships.

The other more famous agility black cocker named Piper that back in the 1990's was on the US agility team that won a silver medal at the world championships was out of champion parents and has champion siblings.  Most of the top winning agility cockers do have champions behind them.  The correct conformation body structure is needed for top level agility success. 

As far as agility being all about health, you need to take a closer look and see the ugly dark side that is there!  Agility, like conformation, has a good number of "win at any cost" people.  Dogs are run until they blow out their ACL's, then have surgery to fix it and sometimes still run after that.  Or they get shoved aside and left at home and ignored.  The same thing happens with dysplastic dogs being run.  Older dogs are pumped full of drugs to stop the pain from the arthritis caused by all the years of doing agility.  At my club's obedience trials we have doggy chiropracters and doggy massuses come.  They have a long line of people waiting to get their aching dogs treated.  Agility success often like the Olympics just proves who has the better drugs!!  Agility proves nothing about health.  The top winning agility dog can produce puppies with things like cataracts, hip and elbow dysplacia or luxating pattellas same as the BIS winner.   Most of the genetic problems have a recessive mode of inheritance.  The ones that have a dominate mode do not show up until later in life.  You need to also ask what happens to the agility dog after it is retired, along with what happens to its littermates and offspring!!  I would like to add more about the subject of stopping breeding so that dogs in shelters can get homes.  It isn't going to work.  First off, it is impossible to do that legally, that is make every single dog owner stop breeding for a set number of years.  Such legislation is unconstitutional.  Second of all, doing it on a voluntary basis isn't going to work.  The people who would comply are not the source of the problem.  The breeders who make their living breeding dogs aren't going to voluntarily stop.  They need the money.  Do you want a government sponsored welfare program to use your tax dollars to replace their incomes for those years?  I sure don't!!  Other breeders who are just suplementing their incomes aren't going to give up that income either, not unless somebody steps in with a handout to replace it.  Thirdly, not all of the people who want a puppy are going to go get it from a shelter during that time frame.  Many will wait.  Others will go out of the country.  Yes, there are lots of dogs in shelters, but not all of those dogs are the dogs that a particular person wants.  The largest number of unadopted shelter dogs are what is classified as BBDs - the big black dogs.  The first B for Big predominates in general.  Many people do not have the living quarters or the lifestyle to be a good home for a big dog.  Stopping all breeding and forcing people to adopt from shelters takes away their freedom of choice to choose the dog that is right for them and their life.

[AnnOminous]

 I never meant to start an angry debate.  I was just hoping we could speak of solutions and though mine may not be the best I am trying to start a dialoug.  I used to be very active on this board and began posting again in the last month.  There are many who know me here.  I was busy getting a national breed rescue started.  I have not bred a litter myself for over 5 years because I've been to busy finding homes for dogs that have been dumped.  You can check this out on
www.peruvianincaorchidrescue.com We are not open yet because we are waiting for 5013c paperwork. 

I love all dogs no matter if they are purebreed or not.  I just don't want to see 400,000 dogs put to sleep in my hometown nor do I want to see legislation enacted that would drive my breed to extinction (they were almost extinct 24 years ago when I started in this breed).  When we used to debate issues here they were always done on the issue and did not become personal. It was a fun forum.  It is sad that it has turned nasty and that other posters would say I am not welcome because I have been inactive for a while.  I honestly thought when I read Ann's post about the legislation in OK that we would be both allies on this issue.   

I am your ally on stopping this dog legislation.  However, it is not going to get stopped by calling on the AKC to come ride to the rescue and stop it.  That was all you proposed as a way to stop it.  I dissagreed.  You did not propose anything else, but instead used incorrect information to back up your position.  I pointed out that your information was incorrect, yet you continued to insist that it was.  I hope that you have gone to the FCI website and educated yourself on just exactly what they do and do not do.  I would also hope that you would go read the AKC charter and articles of incorporation and see for yourself just what they can and cannot do, too. 

And I would also suggest that you run that 5013c paperwork by a lawyer and verify that it is not written where your club cannot give an opinion or take a position on a political issue.  I know that unfortunately American Spaniel Club is in that position.

[JeanG]

 Ann, I smiled at the "BBD" - because we have one. I'm always amazed at how many dogs looking for homes - whether through the shelter or from original owners - are BBD. Any idea on why there are so many BBD mutts?  I've always wondered.

Another question - you have cockers and doglady has a new breed and is trying to get it recognized.  Do either of you or anyone reading this debate have an opinion about the "new breeds" like labradoodle or cockapoo or any of the many others being recognized as breeds? I've always thought of them as mutts with owners that came up with a way to make them sound "better". Our Boo is a mix of Golden, Lab and German Shepherd. Do you think someone is going to call dogs like Boo Golasheps or something equally silly? Any idea why some of these mixes are now called a breed rather than mutts? Enquiring minds and all that... 

[suslvgeo]

 all I have to say, is I am darn glad this is in the debate forum. phew.

On that note, everyone is allowed to their opinion, just make sure to remember that we need to RESPECT others opinions.

[AnnOminous]

 Ann, I smiled at the "BBD" - because we have one. I'm always amazed at how many dogs looking for homes - whether through the shelter or from original owners - are BBD. Any idea on why there are so many BBD mutts?  I've always wondered.

Another question - you have cockers and doglady has a new breed and is trying to get it recognized.  Do either of you or anyone reading this debate have an opinion about the "new breeds" like labradoodle or cockapoo or any of the many others being recognized as breeds? I've always thought of them as mutts with owners that came up with a way to make them sound "better". Our Boo is a mix of Golden, Lab and German Shepherd. Do you think someone is going to call dogs like Boo Golasheps or something equally silly? Any idea why some of these mixes are now called a breed rather than mutts? Enquiring minds and all that... 

It's something with the black, especially in combination with male.  The hardest cocker puppies to find homes for are black males.

The cockapoo and several other poo mixes have been around for decades.  They are as you say basically mutts, but I would put the blame on the breeders as the ones trying to make them sound better and get more $$$$.  Every breeder of both cockers and cockapoos that I have ever seen charges more for the cockapoos.  The newer registries like Continental Kennel Club will register them.  AKC will not.  AKC would have a riot on their hands if they ever even tried to!  These mixed puppies, the "designer dogs" are sold with a package of lies.  They are not healthier.  There are very few genetic diseases that are specific to one breed and one breed only.  Even if a genetic disease is present in just one breed and it is a recessive genetic disease, you only get freedom from it for the first generation.  The minute you breed two mixes together any advantage is lost and an even bigger can of worms is open.

Continuing with the example of the cockapoo - there is and has been for some time a national parent club and registry for cockapoos.  They even have a breed standard.  It's pretty much a copy of the AKC cocker spaniel standard, but with an allowance for curly coat and an even bigger aceptable height range.  One of the veternary manuals, I think it is Merrick's, list the poodle as the breed with the most genetic problems at around 230.  The cocker spaniel is number 2 with around 170.  These cockapoo mixes that have been bred to each other for multiple generations are actually now the breed with the most genetic defects as they have got the worst of both breeds!  Yet they have a national club and act like they are a real breed trying to get recognition.  I had a lady in 1988 tell me that cockapoos were going to be AKC registered in just a few more years.  AKC was going to have to let them in because there were so many.  20 years later it still hasn't happened, but I some cockapoo people are still saying that it will in just a few more years!

The labradoodle actually was started with a goal other than making money.  A service dog organization in Australia started doing the cross breeding in an attempt to get a service dog that did not shed (though short coated, labs are terrible shedders) and had a lower incidence of hip dysplacia.  Apparently somehow that organization was very ignorant of how prevelant hip dysplacia is in standard poodles.  This service organization found their cross breeding experiment to be a total failure and has not bred a litter of labradoodles in a decade.  For one thing, they did not get any decrease in hip dysplacia, despite all the hype of hybrid vigor.  Secondly, they could not get a consistant coat type on the offspring, much less consistantly get a non shedding coat.  The myth about dogs breeding true in five generations is just that - a myth.  It doesn't happen that way in real life.

There are also health problems with cross breeds other than the known genetic disorders.  Take the bite (that's how the teeth meet together, ie does the dog need braces) for example.  The length of the upper jaw is inherited independently of the length of the lower jaw.  You cross two breeds where one has a long pointy nose and the other a wide short muzzle and you can and will get a short upper jaw combined with a long lower jaw and vice versa.  There doesn't even have to be an extreme difference in muzzle type and length to get a mismatch.  This does matter because it is possible for dog to have a bite so bad that it cannot chew solid food but must be fed soft canned food.  My ex-fiance had one such dog, a Maltese/Shih Tzu cross.  Last month I got to talking to a lady in Petco who also had a Maltese/Shih Tzu cross.  Her dog's bite was fine, but it had inherited the longer rear legs of the Shih Tzu and the short front legs of the Maltese.  It's rear was way higher than its shoulders.  I asked if the dog had back problems and her reply was "not yet, she's only 2."  The dog did have bad skin problems though.  So much for a designer dog being healthier!

[JeanG]

 Thanks for all the info, Ann. I had no idea male black Cockers were hard to find homes for!  I was wondering why these mixes were AKC registered - thanks to you, I know they're not. I also had no idea Standard Poodles had hip dysplasia problems. When we picked out our "free" dog (picked is kind of stretching it - he was the only one left! They started giving the pups away at 5 weeks and I won't take one until at least 8 weeks), I was hoping there'd be none of the hip dysplasia problems labs have since he was 50% Golden.  By the time he was 5 months old, though, I knew we'd have problems down the road - his legs are about 4" shorter than they should be to hold his weight.  He has that solid lab body and the thinner, shorter shepherd legs. He's a beautiful dog - long Golden fur and the lab body - the fur started as black and is now, at nearly 3 y.o., turning more rust colored. Hopefully, with all the exercise our dog gets we can put the dysplasia problems off for many years. Thanks for all the information!

[AnnOminous]

 All of the large dog breeds have hip dysplacia (CHD).  Some just have it worse than others.  Medium sized breeds, including cockers, also get CHD.  I've heard that even toy breeds get CHD, it just doesn't cause problems when the dog is that small.  CHD is very controversial as to whether it is genetic or enviromental or both and in what percentage.  I did see a press release a couple of weeks ago where a company was claiming to have found the genes that cause CHD and was planning to have a genetic test on the market.  I really do hope this is the case.  The OFA x-ray based screening process for CHD has not really made that big of an impact in breeding it out.  (Yes, it is true as OFA claims that they are failing fewer dogs each year.  But, you do not have to send your x-rays to OFA.  If the vet who takes the x-rays says that the dog will not pass, then most people do not spend the extra money to send them in and have OFA say the same thing.)

There is a product called Glyco-Flex that I highly recommend for joint problems.  It's main ingredient is the New Zealand Green Lipped Sea Mussel, perna calipicus (probably spelled that wrong).  Over the years I have had many people tell me to try this or that product on my dogs claiming I would see a difference.  Glyco-Flex is the only product that I really could see a difference.

[imwickedwitch]

 Our Golden is on Glycoflex II.  We were able to decrease his dose of Rimadyl after we added the Glycoflex (takes Rimadyl for post TPLO surgery ...had both knees replaced because of blown ACL's)  .  It was really important to us to do that since Rimadyl is really hard on the liver (he has to have periodic liver function tests).  So, the Glycoflex has helped him and it does not carry the side effects.   Without the meds it is very hard for him to get around, though, so the benefits outweigh the risk of the Rimadyl.  He was OFA certified but also has mild to moderate hip dysplasia anyway.  He's ten years old now and the meds combo have made a huge difference in his quality of life.  He gets around really well and can go on walks with me and plays on occasion which he did not do before surgery and meds.  He's a BIG golden (about 3 inches over standard) and such a sweet, needy baby!