Hi all. I used to be active on this board but got busy with helping out with my dog breed and starting a national rescue. I run the Peruvian Inca Orchid Cantina Yahoo groups with members from all over the world. We have been discussing anti dog legislation and what can be done: Here is what I think...
Breeders and dog people need to start policing their own to get rid of the "bad" breeders and Puppy Mills. We need to lobby to AKC hard (who inspects puppy mills and gets money from their registrations) to stop accepting puppy mill registrations for multiple reasons (health issues, the welfare of the animals in these hell holes and overpopulation). Lobby AKC to allow neutered dogs to be shown (a vet can fill a form out that says a dog had 2 testicles when neutered). This and shutting down the mills would quiet a lot of controversy of animal welfare groups (400,000 dogs are put to sleep each year in my city alone. That should anger all dog people). Breed clubs need to encourage members not to breed when their breed is showing up in shelters (like Chihuahuasare currently doing all over the US) and they need to require members to take back any animals they breed and take responsibility for them for life. This would decrease numbers of dogs bred and help re-home dogs. Many good breeders have this policy and our breed club just put it in our by-laws.
The cost to municipalities because of pet overpopulation and the economy is helping to fund anti dog legislation. Our cities can't afford the cost anymore. We need to get involved at all levels (lobbying AKC and at the local levels) or we will all lose. My dogs are rare. No other breed has their personality. I personally think it would be a shame to lose specific breeds of dogs but to stop this we all need to get involved.
Chocolate Covered Cherry
First of all, AKC has no power to do anything about bad conditions. AKC can only suspend registrations for registration bookkeeping errors. AKC is simply a registry and dog event sanctioning body. They have no legal powers to do anything about animal cruelty. If they were to deny registration to somebody who's books are in order but have poor kennel conditions they open themselves up to lawsuits that would bankrupt them. That being said, AKC is doing what they can. Starting in the 1990's they started doing more record keeping inspections. They also started bringing along a local humane officer on those inspections - somebody who did have the legal authority to do something about poor conditions. And they AKC started suspending people who got an actual conviction for animal cruelty.
Did this stop puppy mills? NO. The main thing that happened was that breeders who got AKC suspensions went and formed their own registry - the Continental Kennel Club (CKC - not to be confused with the other CKC, the Canadian Kennel Club). And even more started other registries like AKA, APRI, etc. The pet buying public just happily accepted these registrations instead of AKC, so these breeders thrived. And as a result the AKC has continuously seen their registration revenues drop more and more each year. Right now the AKC is pretty hard up for funds.
Most parent breed clubs do have some sort of breeding quidelines for their members that limit number of litters per year. Those are very hard to enforce - and they are enforceable for members only. The vast majority of breeders do not belong to the parent breed club or any type of AKC club. Most parent breed clubs do require their members to take back any dogs or puppies of their breeding. Parent breed club members are NOT the source of the overcrowding of shelters. Even if they were not taking back their dogs or breeding lots of litters, there are just too few breeders that are parent club members to make a difference. The parent clubs and the other AKC clubs do not have any juristiction over the puppy mills. Those breeders do not join AKC clubs. More and more of them are not even registering their litters with AKC.
Second of all, it is NOT the "animal welfare groups" that are behind the anti-dog legislation. It is the Animal Rights groups. There is a difference - a big difference. The AR groups (PeTA, HSUS are the two big leaders) are headed by vegan extremists. These people have a moral objection to animals being slaughtered for food or clothes. Their goal is to see all animal slaughter stop and everybody become strict vegans. Even if all people became vegans there would still be farm animals being slaughtered to become pet food. The fact is that dogs and especially cats do not do well on a vegan diet. Since our pets can't be vegans, they must go. At the heart of the Animal Rights movement is the elimination of pet ownership. There is no such thing as a responsible breeder according to them. All breeders - every single breeder must be shut down.
The animal welfare groups are the good guys. The AW groups are fighting to protect pet ownership and breeding rights yet still have humane standards of care for the animals.
The ideas that you propose are straight out of the Animal Rights playbook. They are designed to shut all breeding down and to eventually end pet ownership. Your ideas sound good, but they won't accomplish what you think they will. You vastly overestimate the power of the AKC and the parent breed clubs. The AR groups are counting on that. They have suckered you into supporting the extinction of your breed followed by the extinction of all dog breeds.
Did this stop puppy mills? NO. The main thing that happened was that breeders who got AKC suspensions went and formed their own registry - the Continental Kennel Club (CKC - not to be confused with the other CKC, the Canadian Kennel Club). And even more started other registries like AKA, APRI, etc. The pet buying public just happily accepted these registrations instead of AKC, so these breeders thrived. And as a result the AKC has continuously seen their registration revenues drop more and more each year. Right now the AKC is pretty hard up for funds.
Most parent breed clubs do have some sort of breeding quidelines for their members that limit number of litters per year. Those are very hard to enforce - and they are enforceable for members only. The vast majority of breeders do not belong to the parent breed club or any type of AKC club. Most parent breed clubs do require their members to take back any dogs or puppies of their breeding. Parent breed club members are NOT the source of the overcrowding of shelters. Even if they were not taking back their dogs or breeding lots of litters, there are just too few breeders that are parent club members to make a difference. The parent clubs and the other AKC clubs do not have any juristiction over the puppy mills. Those breeders do not join AKC clubs. More and more of them are not even registering their litters with AKC.
Second of all, it is NOT the "animal welfare groups" that are behind the anti-dog legislation. It is the Animal Rights groups. There is a difference - a big difference. The AR groups (PeTA, HSUS are the two big leaders) are headed by vegan extremists. These people have a moral objection to animals being slaughtered for food or clothes. Their goal is to see all animal slaughter stop and everybody become strict vegans. Even if all people became vegans there would still be farm animals being slaughtered to become pet food. The fact is that dogs and especially cats do not do well on a vegan diet. Since our pets can't be vegans, they must go. At the heart of the Animal Rights movement is the elimination of pet ownership. There is no such thing as a responsible breeder according to them. All breeders - every single breeder must be shut down.
The animal welfare groups are the good guys. The AW groups are fighting to protect pet ownership and breeding rights yet still have humane standards of care for the animals.
The ideas that you propose are straight out of the Animal Rights playbook. They are designed to shut all breeding down and to eventually end pet ownership. Your ideas sound good, but they won't accomplish what you think they will. You vastly overestimate the power of the AKC and the parent breed clubs. The AR groups are counting on that. They have suckered you into supporting the extinction of your breed followed by the extinction of all dog breeds.
Cherry Berry
Hi Ann,
I am not afilliated with any animal rights group or club nor am I a Vegan. I was President of my breed club for 5 years and served on the BOD for 10. I used to show dogs and have been a breeder myself. I worked with AKC hand in hand and know the organization well. I was President when our breed went FSS (Foundation Stock). A dear friend has been a grande dame and judge of the AKC for 30 years and knows everyone higher up on the board on first name basis. I deal with Mary Beth O'Neil on a regualr basis as our breed will soone be accepted into misc. class at AKC. So I do understand the AKC but also know that if we do not change from within the rights we enjoy will be taken from us and we could lose the breeds we love. There has to be compromise. I am just encouraging people to get involved to help shape the debate because no matter what our views are the legislation is being enacted everywhere and if we do not get involved the PETA group and others will be the only voices heard.
AKC does inspect puppy mills. This is copied from the AKC web site:
In addition, the AKC Investigations and Inspections department conducts more than 4,000 kennel inspections each year. When AKC inspectors find kennels that do not meet our minimum care and conditions requirements, they educate and encourage those breeders to raise their standards or face suspension of their AKC registration privileges. Proper authorities are also alerted to any cases of animal neglect.
You are right that they go to look at paperwork but they are supposed to report poor conditions and follow it up yet year after year the mills stay in business. AKC needs to change. I know all about the CKC (Continental Kennel Club). So what if the mills go to CKC? CKC was started because AKC started asking for DNA on litters. CKC has virtually no guidelines and make themselves an easy target. Sadly we are not doing enough to educate the public about groups like this. Because my breed is still rare we show in ARBA and UKC which are decent groups. Yes, UKC does do registrations but you need to have a valid registration from another nationally recognized (Ours is the Kennel Club of Peru) registry or AKC to register with them. ARBA (American Rare Bred Assoc.) does not register but just puts on rare breed dog shows under FCI rules.
We need to balance our needs with those of the dogs we love. Personally for me the dogs come first. I do believe we need to help frame the debate and we should not develop tunnel vision. If we don't work for a solution the solution will be made for us.
I am not afilliated with any animal rights group or club nor am I a Vegan. I was President of my breed club for 5 years and served on the BOD for 10. I used to show dogs and have been a breeder myself. I worked with AKC hand in hand and know the organization well. I was President when our breed went FSS (Foundation Stock). A dear friend has been a grande dame and judge of the AKC for 30 years and knows everyone higher up on the board on first name basis. I deal with Mary Beth O'Neil on a regualr basis as our breed will soone be accepted into misc. class at AKC. So I do understand the AKC but also know that if we do not change from within the rights we enjoy will be taken from us and we could lose the breeds we love. There has to be compromise. I am just encouraging people to get involved to help shape the debate because no matter what our views are the legislation is being enacted everywhere and if we do not get involved the PETA group and others will be the only voices heard.
AKC does inspect puppy mills. This is copied from the AKC web site:
In addition, the AKC Investigations and Inspections department conducts more than 4,000 kennel inspections each year. When AKC inspectors find kennels that do not meet our minimum care and conditions requirements, they educate and encourage those breeders to raise their standards or face suspension of their AKC registration privileges. Proper authorities are also alerted to any cases of animal neglect.
You are right that they go to look at paperwork but they are supposed to report poor conditions and follow it up yet year after year the mills stay in business. AKC needs to change. I know all about the CKC (Continental Kennel Club). So what if the mills go to CKC? CKC was started because AKC started asking for DNA on litters. CKC has virtually no guidelines and make themselves an easy target. Sadly we are not doing enough to educate the public about groups like this. Because my breed is still rare we show in ARBA and UKC which are decent groups. Yes, UKC does do registrations but you need to have a valid registration from another nationally recognized (Ours is the Kennel Club of Peru) registry or AKC to register with them. ARBA (American Rare Bred Assoc.) does not register but just puts on rare breed dog shows under FCI rules.
We need to balance our needs with those of the dogs we love. Personally for me the dogs come first. I do believe we need to help frame the debate and we should not develop tunnel vision. If we don't work for a solution the solution will be made for us.
God bless
Chocolate Covered Cherry
I've been showing and breeding cocker spaniels for over 20 years. I do belong to the national parent club. I also belong to a local all breed club for which I have served as Corresponding Secretary, Vice President, Board Member and Show Chairman. I used to belong to a local specialty club and served there as Secretary, Board Member and Show Chair. More recently I went last week to the state capital to lobby with the Responsible Pet Owners Alliance http://www.rpoatexasoutreach.org/ against a lot of pending anti-dog legislation backed by the AR groups that will not only severely limit dog breeding in this state if passed, but also dog ownership. (For example, any dog 40 pounds or over automatically becomes a "dangerous dog" which legally means that the owner must get a $100,000 insurance police for each dangerous dog, along with extra strong fencing requirements and yard sign requirements, etc. Another pending legislation would make it illegal to leave your dog out in your fenced backyard when you are not home, or even give access to the yard via a doggy door.)
I am not disagreeing with you that there does need to be change from within. What I am dissagreeing with you about is your rosey eyed view that change from within can change everything and is all that is needed. There are limits to what AKC can do. Yes, they can do more, but you need to have that dear friend call up all her friends on the AKC board and get a true picture of what financial straits the AKC is really in with the loss of the registrations to the alternative puppy mill registries. Why else would the AKC now for a $30 fee be registering some dogs from those registries with full breeding rights? Why else would AKC have set up that registration program with Petland Pet shops that got canned due to the uproar from the delegate body? Why else would AKC be wanting to implement an extra $25 a year fee for showing dogs? Of course the AKC is not issuing press releases about how strapped they are for money, but the signs are there and have been for over a decade. You do not know AKC even half as well as you think you do! There are limits to what AKC can do. Yes, they do need to do way more in the area of public education. However, they are doing about as much as they can with regards to poor puppy mill conditions. They do report what they see to the local authorities. If the local authorities do nothing, that is not the AKCs fault. If the puppy mills are not registering their dogs with AKC, then how is AKC suppose to even know they are there? And contrary to your information, CKC was formed before AKC started DNA testing with the FUS program. CKC just really started growing at that point, along with the other registries that sprung up at that time.
You write that you want to work for a solution. You aren't going to get any kind of a solution with your proposed lobbying of AKC. You need to start contacting your state legislators and local county officials and get to know them. Campaign for resonable laws with them. The AR groups are. The AR groups have billions of dollars to spend. Yes, they got that money by playing on the general public's heartstrings with puppy mills and shelter euthanasia. They also did it with outright lies, like when HSUS started campaigning for money for the care of Michael Vick's pit bulls. The fine print on their solicitations (as with all of their solicitations including spay/neuter money and disaster relief funds) says that they can spend any contributions on any program they want. Turns out HSUS did not at any time ever have Vick's dogs in their care. None of the money they solicited for their care ever went to them. The Lousianna Attorney General was investigating just what all HSUS did and did not do with all the money they collected in the name of Hurricane Katrina relief.
AKC does not have enough money to fight HSUS or PeTA. These are the two major groups that are behind the legislation. These two groups are headed by radical Vegans who want to end all animal ownership. Despite whatever the dog breeders do towards policing our own, there will always be somebody we can't stop. The AR groups will seize upon them to further their goals. They will spin it as needed for the press. Did you hear about how the breeder of VP Joe Biden's new German Shepard puppy was charged with animal cruelty for having an unsanitary kennel? Did you hear that the unsanitary conditions were actually some kibble spilled on the floor along with some straw? Did you hear that all charges were dissmissed in court? I bet a lot of people heard the first one and never heard the last two!!! Even though the breeder was cleared on all charges, they still had to go to court and pay a lawyer to get that result. The breeder now says that they wish they had never sold Biden the puppy. How much you want to bet something similar happens to the breeders of the new First Dog?
Bottom line is don't expect AKC to come to the rescue with regards to all this anti-dog legislation and fix everything. They can't. Check with your dear friend. If she really is as connected as you claim she should be able to give you a reality check. What it is going to take to stop this anti-dog legislation is YOU and people like you getting off of their butts and contacting their legislators and campaigning against it themselves!!!
I am not disagreeing with you that there does need to be change from within. What I am dissagreeing with you about is your rosey eyed view that change from within can change everything and is all that is needed. There are limits to what AKC can do. Yes, they can do more, but you need to have that dear friend call up all her friends on the AKC board and get a true picture of what financial straits the AKC is really in with the loss of the registrations to the alternative puppy mill registries. Why else would the AKC now for a $30 fee be registering some dogs from those registries with full breeding rights? Why else would AKC have set up that registration program with Petland Pet shops that got canned due to the uproar from the delegate body? Why else would AKC be wanting to implement an extra $25 a year fee for showing dogs? Of course the AKC is not issuing press releases about how strapped they are for money, but the signs are there and have been for over a decade. You do not know AKC even half as well as you think you do! There are limits to what AKC can do. Yes, they do need to do way more in the area of public education. However, they are doing about as much as they can with regards to poor puppy mill conditions. They do report what they see to the local authorities. If the local authorities do nothing, that is not the AKCs fault. If the puppy mills are not registering their dogs with AKC, then how is AKC suppose to even know they are there? And contrary to your information, CKC was formed before AKC started DNA testing with the FUS program. CKC just really started growing at that point, along with the other registries that sprung up at that time.
You write that you want to work for a solution. You aren't going to get any kind of a solution with your proposed lobbying of AKC. You need to start contacting your state legislators and local county officials and get to know them. Campaign for resonable laws with them. The AR groups are. The AR groups have billions of dollars to spend. Yes, they got that money by playing on the general public's heartstrings with puppy mills and shelter euthanasia. They also did it with outright lies, like when HSUS started campaigning for money for the care of Michael Vick's pit bulls. The fine print on their solicitations (as with all of their solicitations including spay/neuter money and disaster relief funds) says that they can spend any contributions on any program they want. Turns out HSUS did not at any time ever have Vick's dogs in their care. None of the money they solicited for their care ever went to them. The Lousianna Attorney General was investigating just what all HSUS did and did not do with all the money they collected in the name of Hurricane Katrina relief.
AKC does not have enough money to fight HSUS or PeTA. These are the two major groups that are behind the legislation. These two groups are headed by radical Vegans who want to end all animal ownership. Despite whatever the dog breeders do towards policing our own, there will always be somebody we can't stop. The AR groups will seize upon them to further their goals. They will spin it as needed for the press. Did you hear about how the breeder of VP Joe Biden's new German Shepard puppy was charged with animal cruelty for having an unsanitary kennel? Did you hear that the unsanitary conditions were actually some kibble spilled on the floor along with some straw? Did you hear that all charges were dissmissed in court? I bet a lot of people heard the first one and never heard the last two!!! Even though the breeder was cleared on all charges, they still had to go to court and pay a lawyer to get that result. The breeder now says that they wish they had never sold Biden the puppy. How much you want to bet something similar happens to the breeders of the new First Dog?
Bottom line is don't expect AKC to come to the rescue with regards to all this anti-dog legislation and fix everything. They can't. Check with your dear friend. If she really is as connected as you claim she should be able to give you a reality check. What it is going to take to stop this anti-dog legislation is YOU and people like you getting off of their butts and contacting their legislators and campaigning against it themselves!!!
Cherry Blossom
I understand your plight and all arguments presented in this topic. In my lifetime I bought a puppy-mill Cairn Terrier (back when puppy mill horrors weren't unveiled to the public), adopted 2 local SPCA dogs, and my latest fur ball is a career-change dog from the Guide Dogs for the Blind. All 4 of the lovely companion dogs I've owned are the sweetest, lovliest, nicest, smartest dogs I could've ever dreamed of.
I'm pretty much an animal activist too, but the AKC really can't do too much and there's NO way they're going to accept an altered dog for show. That's how the breeders make their money...through stud and female fees. So in my humble opinion my feeling is that if you don't have a champion-quality animal and you have absolutely no plans on crisscrossing the country showing this dog in one of the MOST competitive rings on planet Earth then you MUST spay or neuter your dog. Period. END of story. I've heard so many horror stories about young families who just want to have 1 litter of puppies, but end up going broke because of all of the vet bills for the puppies and may or may not sell a single pup. So then they're broke AND they now have 5 dogs instead of 1.The animals I've had in my care (and not just dogs--I've had ferrets, a macaw, and a cat) I found were just icing on the proverbial cake--and boy is it yummy! My life is so much better because I have encountered these animals.Just my $0.02,-L
I'm pretty much an animal activist too, but the AKC really can't do too much and there's NO way they're going to accept an altered dog for show. That's how the breeders make their money...through stud and female fees. So in my humble opinion my feeling is that if you don't have a champion-quality animal and you have absolutely no plans on crisscrossing the country showing this dog in one of the MOST competitive rings on planet Earth then you MUST spay or neuter your dog. Period. END of story. I've heard so many horror stories about young families who just want to have 1 litter of puppies, but end up going broke because of all of the vet bills for the puppies and may or may not sell a single pup. So then they're broke AND they now have 5 dogs instead of 1.The animals I've had in my care (and not just dogs--I've had ferrets, a macaw, and a cat) I found were just icing on the proverbial cake--and boy is it yummy! My life is so much better because I have encountered these animals.Just my $0.02,-L
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Cherry Berry
Sadly Champion award winning dogs can have awful litters with just as many health products as the back yard littlers. Dogs bred for the show ring are being bred to win there. That is not always in the best interest in the physiology of the dog. There are breeds that have evolved because of this where they can't breed without outside help or routinely require C-sections. Breeding is more about genetics. Some of the nicest pups can come out of ho hum looking dogs because of their genetic make up.
AKC set themselves upto be the be all end governing body of dogs in this country. Every other country is under FCI with parent breed clubs and the state breed clubs handling problems locally. FCI does not register dogs. Since AKC has set themselves up this way I think that they do need to be more involved. I am aware that they took in $15 million less last year in fees. Their income was still around $66 million. Where does that money go? II think that amount of money entitles us to ask that they do more.
I am already involved in my local governement trying to craft legislation that is fair but there is a huge ground swell coming of public opinion that is going more with the PETAs etc and we need an equal groundswell to represent us. Maybe if AKC can't help with the solution then maybe we need to form an organization that will.
AKC set themselves upto be the be all end governing body of dogs in this country. Every other country is under FCI with parent breed clubs and the state breed clubs handling problems locally. FCI does not register dogs. Since AKC has set themselves up this way I think that they do need to be more involved. I am aware that they took in $15 million less last year in fees. Their income was still around $66 million. Where does that money go? II think that amount of money entitles us to ask that they do more.
I am already involved in my local governement trying to craft legislation that is fair but there is a huge ground swell coming of public opinion that is going more with the PETAs etc and we need an equal groundswell to represent us. Maybe if AKC can't help with the solution then maybe we need to form an organization that will.
God bless
Chocolate Covered Cherry
Every other country is NOT under FCI!!! Canada, United Kingdom and Australia to name three that are not. As you say, FCI does NOT register dogs. All FCI does is sanction dog shows and approve dog show judges. FCI does not even approve breed standards. All those countries with FCI shows have their own national kennel clubs that do the registration. In some countries the parent club for the breed plays a large role and even has to approve all breedings. Our US constitution prevents that from happening here.
AKC is far from the all end governing body of dogs in this country. They just put on the most dog shows. That's where the majority of the money is going - to pay for the dog shows. All AKC does is sell pieces of paper - registration papers and title certificates. AKC is NOT a part of the government. They have no legal right to do anything to put puppy mills out of business. All they can do is report the ones they come across to the local authorities - which they do. AKC can't do anything more. They are not the doggy police! AKC is legally incorportated as a club to promote the purebred dog. Legally they can only do what their charter allows - a charter that was written in the later 1800's. AKC has become a victim of their own success. People think they can do so much more than they legally can. And all this time what they do to combat the problems of dog abuse has resulted in them having less and less money. On a nationwide basis, $66 million in today's economy is chump change. HSUS and PeTA have 100 times more money, billions of dollars.
I really doubt that AKC will be around in its current form in 100 years. More than likely AKC will be replaced by a branch of the US government under the Department of Agriculture taking over dog registrations like how the Canadian Kennel Club is now an official Canadian government agency. That is if we still get to own dogs, much less breed them.
As far as forming a national organization that will help with the legislative problems, there already are several. One of the oldest and best organized is the National Animal Interests Alliance http://www.naiaonline.org/ . Another organization is the U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance www.ussportsmen.org along with the American Dog Owners Association http://www.adoa.org/ and also Sportsmen's and Animal Owners' Voting Alliance- http://saova.org There are also numerous organizations at the state level with the purpose of fighting state legislation. Give these organizations your money and your support rather than trying to reinvent the wheel with a new organization or waiting on the AKC to save the day, please!!!!
AKC is far from the all end governing body of dogs in this country. They just put on the most dog shows. That's where the majority of the money is going - to pay for the dog shows. All AKC does is sell pieces of paper - registration papers and title certificates. AKC is NOT a part of the government. They have no legal right to do anything to put puppy mills out of business. All they can do is report the ones they come across to the local authorities - which they do. AKC can't do anything more. They are not the doggy police! AKC is legally incorportated as a club to promote the purebred dog. Legally they can only do what their charter allows - a charter that was written in the later 1800's. AKC has become a victim of their own success. People think they can do so much more than they legally can. And all this time what they do to combat the problems of dog abuse has resulted in them having less and less money. On a nationwide basis, $66 million in today's economy is chump change. HSUS and PeTA have 100 times more money, billions of dollars.
I really doubt that AKC will be around in its current form in 100 years. More than likely AKC will be replaced by a branch of the US government under the Department of Agriculture taking over dog registrations like how the Canadian Kennel Club is now an official Canadian government agency. That is if we still get to own dogs, much less breed them.
As far as forming a national organization that will help with the legislative problems, there already are several. One of the oldest and best organized is the National Animal Interests Alliance http://www.naiaonline.org/ . Another organization is the U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance www.ussportsmen.org along with the American Dog Owners Association http://www.adoa.org/ and also Sportsmen's and Animal Owners' Voting Alliance- http://saova.org There are also numerous organizations at the state level with the purpose of fighting state legislation. Give these organizations your money and your support rather than trying to reinvent the wheel with a new organization or waiting on the AKC to save the day, please!!!!
Cherry Berry
I have read posts on the groups you are speaking of and have found a there is a whole lot of misinformation on these sites which is why I am trying to get people who love dogs outside of the "dog world" involved. I have fact checked their stories and found many untrue. Most are urban legends. I do not see any group as all bad or as all good. While I may disagree with PETA on many issues they have done some very good things (animal testing in the cosmentic industry etc). While I have spoken out on changes in AKC it is because they have made themselves the mouthpiece for pure breed dogs in this country. And yes, in the US breed clubs follow the rules of AKC (unless you are a rare breed). All other countries fall under FCI. They may have their own kennel clubs but they still fall into their guidelines and show under the FCI accepted standard and their guidelines. FCI is like the United Nations of dogs but the US wanted their own. The reason I know this is because the standard for my breed is for one size dog and one standard in the US and everywhere else in the world they go by a different standard and have three sizes. Other countries do not want to accept our AKC FSS registered dogs (I spent months helping to get a dog registered in Finland because of this mess) in my breed because of the differnece in the two standards.
I wish you luck with your dogs. We may see things vastly differently but we both love dogs and don't want to lose any breeds. They are all precious weather they are pure breed or mutts. God bless
I wish you luck with your dogs. We may see things vastly differently but we both love dogs and don't want to lose any breeds. They are all precious weather they are pure breed or mutts. God bless
God bless
Chocolate Covered Cherry
No, all other countries do NOT follow FCI. You are totally incorrect. Canada, the United Kingdom and Australia have their own separate national all breed registries and have nothing to do with FCI. They don't even have FCI sanctioned shows. The Canadian Kennel Club is an agency of the Canadian national government. The Kennel Club in the UK is actually an older organization than AKC and totally independent of FCI. FCI has only been around a few decades sanctioning shows. AKC, CKC and KC have all been around for over a hundred years. FCI uses the breed standard of what they consider to be the country of origin for the breed. For my breed the Cocker Spaniel that is the AKC standard, same as for the Boston Terrier and the Cheapaske Bay Retriever. If the American parent club standard for the PIO is so different from the country of origin that you have problems exporting your dogs to Finland than you have only yourself to blame as past president of your national club. The only problem with getting cocker spaniels registered in other countries is sometimes the docked tails.
As far as urban legends, well, you can believe all the mistruths you want and apparently you do. With regards to the FCI you have already demonstrated how inaccurate your fact checking is. And with regards to animal testing for cosmetics, PeTA has not made that much of a difference in this country, though they like to claim otherwise. The FDA still requires that all cosmetic products be tested on animals. The only exception is that if every single ingredient in that product has been individually tested on animals. "Cruelty free" and "Not Tested on Animals" in the USA is a marketing ploy and a lie. In some other country the animal testing was done.
As far as urban legends, well, you can believe all the mistruths you want and apparently you do. With regards to the FCI you have already demonstrated how inaccurate your fact checking is. And with regards to animal testing for cosmetics, PeTA has not made that much of a difference in this country, though they like to claim otherwise. The FDA still requires that all cosmetic products be tested on animals. The only exception is that if every single ingredient in that product has been individually tested on animals. "Cruelty free" and "Not Tested on Animals" in the USA is a marketing ploy and a lie. In some other country the animal testing was done.
Bowl Full of Cherries
Ann, you are obviously very knowledgable about this issue. As you may remember, I have debated a similar issue with you on one of your previous threads, and I respect your background and research on this issue.
However, I feel that at times, your posts are a bit disrespectful to others. I do not fault you for being passionate, as I am very passionate about many issues. I just wish that you wouldn't say things like doglady was "suckered" or that she has a "rosy-eyed view." You also said, "As far as urban legends, well, you can believe all the mistruths you
want and apparently you do. With regards to the FCI you have already
demonstrated how inaccurate your fact checking is." Perhaps others would disagree with me, but I don't think that comment is condusive to healthy debate.
I have been on this board for years, and I've participated in many a debate, and I've learned that being polite but assertive is the best way to communicate an opinion. In fact, having spirited (but respectful) debates has allowed me to form a friendship with a woman on this board that I would characterize as the poplar opposite of me politically (as just as outspoken as me!). Yes, I'm talking about you, Tania!
Although I disagree with your viewpoint, Ann, I encourage you to express it. That's why I love ACOT.
However, I feel that at times, your posts are a bit disrespectful to others. I do not fault you for being passionate, as I am very passionate about many issues. I just wish that you wouldn't say things like doglady was "suckered" or that she has a "rosy-eyed view." You also said, "As far as urban legends, well, you can believe all the mistruths you
want and apparently you do. With regards to the FCI you have already
demonstrated how inaccurate your fact checking is." Perhaps others would disagree with me, but I don't think that comment is condusive to healthy debate.
I have been on this board for years, and I've participated in many a debate, and I've learned that being polite but assertive is the best way to communicate an opinion. In fact, having spirited (but respectful) debates has allowed me to form a friendship with a woman on this board that I would characterize as the poplar opposite of me politically (as just as outspoken as me!). Yes, I'm talking about you, Tania!
Although I disagree with your viewpoint, Ann, I encourage you to express it. That's why I love ACOT.
Leslie
Chocolate Covered Cherry
Well Leslie, I'm sorry you don't like my attempts to politely say "You are wrong". Doglady is indeed wrong about FCI. You can go read their Wikipedia entry here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9d%C ... rnationale and see their own website here http://www.fci.be/ Though the FCI is older than I thought, it is still younger than AKC or TKC. The world is most definitely NOT divided into only FCI and AKC. And she is wrong about other things, too.
Digital Designers
As a dog owner, dog lover, and rescue advocate I personally think ALL breeding should be stopped for at least 5 years until such a time that there are no animals in shelters, but hey that's in my ideal world in my head where every dog has a happy owner and a full belly 
. What we as a country are doing is mass murder every week in shelters throughout the US 
. Unfortunately I see the AKC as a MAJOR contributor to the problem. Overbreeding isn't just happening in puppy mills! It's happening nationwide with AKC registered breeders. And when pups don't make the cut they get dumped. The AKC needs to allow spayed/neutered dogs into it's beauty pagent shows (lets face it that's what they are) and it needs to take more of a stance on spay/neuter programs regardless of the outcome, and nothing says that louder than letting ALL dogs compete regardless of whether they have reproductive organs. I also think they need to do away with the beauty pagent side of the AKC shows and move more into agility etc. Dogs weren't bred to look pretty they were bred to do jobs! I'd take an AKC agility champ over a confirmation champ any day of the week!
. What we as a country are doing is mass murder every week in shelters throughout the US . Unfortunately I see the AKC as a MAJOR contributor to the problem. Overbreeding isn't just happening in puppy mills! It's happening nationwide with AKC registered breeders. And when pups don't make the cut they get dumped. The AKC needs to allow spayed/neutered dogs into it's beauty pagent shows (lets face it that's what they are) and it needs to take more of a stance on spay/neuter programs regardless of the outcome, and nothing says that louder than letting ALL dogs compete regardless of whether they have reproductive organs. I also think they need to do away with the beauty pagent side of the AKC shows and move more into agility etc. Dogs weren't bred to look pretty they were bred to do jobs! I'd take an AKC agility champ over a confirmation champ any day of the week! Bowl Full of Cherries
I'm not concerned with rather doglady is right or wrong. For the record, I disagree with her almost as much as I disagree with your. But that's irrelevant. Ann, I don't want to pick a fight with you. That's not the type of person that I am. I just want to tell you that to me (and I might be the only one that thinks this!), I think that sometimes your words can be disrespectful. Also, since I respect the fact that you are so knowledgable on this issue, I think that other people might be more willing to engage with your view if you write in a way that is condusive to a healthy debate.
Leslie
Chocolate Covered Cherry
Well I am concerned as to whether she is right or wrong since she is using wrong facts (and these are facts, it is NOT an opinion as to what countries FCI holds shows in nor what their rules are) to support her views.lilkoala3 wrote:I'm not concerned with rather doglady is right or wrong. For the record, I disagree with her almost as much as I disagree with your. But that's irrelevant. Ann, I don't want to pick a fight with you. That's not the type of person that I am. I just want to tell you that to me (and I might be the only one that thinks this!), I think that sometimes your words can be disrespectful. Also, since I respect the fact that you are so knowledgable on this issue, I think that other people might be more willing to engage with your view if you write in a way that is condusive to a healthy debate.
Chocolate Covered Cherry
Do you realize what no breeding at all by anybody for 5 years would do? You would pretty much wipe out all dogs breeds!! Ideally a female dog should not be bred until she is two years of age. Breeding at age 7 is risky and at age 8 is dangerously risky. Past that a female dog is probably not going to be fertile. Yes, female dogs do go through menopause. Please do the math. You stop all breeding right now for 5 years and in 5 years you will only have a very small number of female dogs ages 5 to 7 who can be used for breeding. You have also seriously and dangerously narrowed the gene pool.DiHickman wrote: As a dog owner, dog lover, and rescue advocate I personally think ALL breeding should be stopped for at least 5 years until such a time that there are no animals in shelters, but hey that's in my ideal world in my head where every dog has a happy owner and a full belly. What we as a country are doing is mass murder every week in shelters throughout the US
. Unfortunately I see the AKC as a MAJOR contributor to the problem. Overbreeding isn't just happening in puppy mills! It's happening nationwide with AKC registered breeders. And when pups don't make the cut they get dumped. The AKC needs to allow spayed/neutered dogs into it's beauty pagent shows (lets face it that's what they are) and it needs to take more of a stance on spay/neuter programs regardless of the outcome, and nothing says that louder than letting ALL dogs compete regardless of whether they have reproductive organs. I also think they need to do away with the beauty pagent side of the AKC shows and move more into agility etc. Dogs weren't bred to look pretty they were bred to do jobs! I'd take an AKC agility champ over a confirmation champ any day of the week!
As far as letting spayed/neutered dogs compete in conformation shows, there really are not that many people who want to do it. AKC is getting desperate enough for money that it may one day be allowed. Spayed females in coated breeds have an unfair advantage. They grow a lot more coat.
And FYI, AKC has just announced a new program that effective October 1st will allow spayed/neutered mix breeds to compete in AKC agility, obedience and rally competitions. It is the money from agility that is largely responsible for keeping AKC afloat nowadays.
And a very large number of those dogs in shelters are not coming from breeders who register exclusively with AKC. APRI, CKC and AKA are the ones registering dogs from any breeder without any inspections as to record keeping or kennel conditions.
Cherry Bomb
I am going to be quite honest here and not pretend to know any of this and yes I will run for cover as soon as I hit send...but....I have to say first off anyone who believes ANYHING on Wikipedia needs to get a better grasp of it - most of it can be updated by just about anyone - so any information on this site should not be considered correct...IMO - as for your jumping on Doglady when she said "all others fall unde FCI" ... she pretty much rephrased her statement in the same paragraph! I did not do an all out investigation but...you may want to re-think your statement.AnnOminous wrote: Well Leslie, I'm sorry you don't like my attempts to politely say "You are wrong". Doglady is indeed wrong about FCI. You can go read their Wikipedia entry here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9d%C ... rnationale and see their own website here http://www.fci.be/ Though the FCI is older than I thought, it is still younger than AKC or TKC. The world is most definitely NOT divided into only FCI and AKC. And she is wrong about other things, too.
"All other countries fall under FCI. They may have their own kennel clubs but they still fall into their guidelines and show under the FCI accepted standard and their guidelines."
I may upset you both I too think breeding should be stopped - there are plenty of dogs to go around.
Ann
Chocolate Covered Cherry
Then do not go by the Wikipedia entry. I only put it there because Leslie liked to quote from there before and apparently she believes what is written there. Go to the second link, the actual FCI website at http://www.fci.be/ Click on "Members" and go to http://www.fci.be/membres.aspx Look at their own list in their drop down box. Canada and the United Kingdom are NOT there!!! (Yes, Australia is and I was wrong about them.) Canada and the United Kingdom do NOT fall under FCI guidelines and they do NOT show under the FCI accepted standards. Both countries have their own standards and their own show guidelines and those are the ones they follow, not FCI - and yes, Canada and the UK do count as part of the rest of the world. Futhermore, if you pause for a little bit longer on their home page you will see that FCI has had a ban in effect against Canadian Kennel Club judges and are intending to lift it. FCI has also suspended relations with Moldavia's national kennel club. I have no need to re-think my statement. You need to do the investigation that you admit you did not do and re-think your statement. Doglady is incorrect with what she wrote and in both ways that she wrote it.3 Pals wrote:I am going to be quite honest here and not pretend to know any of this and yes I will run for cover as soon as I hit send...but....I have to say first off anyone who believes ANYHING on Wikipedia needs to get a better grasp of it - most of it can be updated by just about anyone - so any information on this site should not be considered correct...IMO - as for your jumping on Doglady when she said "all others fall unde FCI" ... she pretty much rephrased her statement in the same paragraph! I did not do an all out investigation but...you may want to re-think your statement.AnnOminous wrote: Well Leslie, I'm sorry you don't like my attempts to politely say "You are wrong". Doglady is indeed wrong about FCI. You can go read their Wikipedia entry here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9d%C ... rnationale and see their own website here http://www.fci.be/ Though the FCI is older than I thought, it is still younger than AKC or TKC. The world is most definitely NOT divided into only FCI and AKC. And she is wrong about other things, too.
"All other countries fall under FCI. They may have their own kennel clubs but they still fall into their guidelines and show under the FCI accepted standard and their guidelines."
I may upset you both I too think breeding should be stopped - there are plenty of dogs to go around.
China, the world's largest country is also not on the FCI list. However, I have no idea if they have any dog shows there are not. I do know that purebred dogs of many different breeds have been purchased from the US and gone to China (that's mainland China, not Hong Kong or Taiwan, which are under the FCI).
Yes, there are plenty of dogs to go around NOW. Stop all breeding and in less than a decade there won't be. Unless you want to import dogs from the rest of the world. So far over 300,000 American dogs in shelters in the US have been euthanized because of dogs imported from foreign counties and adopted out of shelters in some parts of the US. With all the US purebreds that China has been buying maybe they intend to become the world's supplier of purebred dogs. Now that is a scary thought!!
Bowl Full of Cherries
I never took issue with any of the facts that you stated. I took issue with how you stated them.AnnOminous wrote:Then do not go by the Wikipedia entry. I only put it there because Leslie liked to quote from there before and apparently she believes what is written there.
Leslie
Chocolate Covered Cherry
As a note of general interest, I thought y'all might like some background on how puppy mills, er large volumne commercial breeders came into being.
The craze to own a pure bred dog for the most part started after WWII. Yes, the AKC did ride a wave of popularity and increased registrations. Though there were many large scale show kennels in existance before this started, they mainly specialized in a single breed or maybe a few at most. There also were not enough of them to supply all the purebred puppies that were suddenly in demand.
Enter the US Department of Agriculture. The USDA thought that puppies made a good cash crop for farmers returning home from the war. The USDA financed low interst loans to farmers to get started in the commercial kennel business. The USDA also started liscencing commercial kennels.
The USDA continues even today to liscence and inspect commercial kennels and brokers. The USDA also continues to back loans to finance these kennels and brokers. The Hunte Corporation http://www.thehuntecorporation.com/details.aspx is today the largest of the puppy brokers. The Hunte Corporation was started with USDA backed low interest loans and that financing continues. The Hunte Corporation has received several "business of the year" type awards from the USDA.
Yes, the AKC for decades rode the gravy train of registrations that resulted from the general public's wanting of a purebred dog and the general public's feeling that AKC registration was a sign of a quality dog though it never really was. But when the AKC actually tried to do something about the poor conditions that many of the AKC registered puppies were raised in, those breeders turned away from the AKC and started their own registries. And the general public responded by not caring what registry their purebred puppies came from and buying CKC, AKC, APRI, etc registered puppies instead.
If you really want to put a dent in the large scale commercial dog breeding industry, don't look to the AKC but look to the USDA. Lobby your congressman and senators to have the USDA stop backing and guarenteeing all those low interest loans with taxpayer money. President Obama wants to spend money and create jobs - lobby him to increase the USDA's budget for more commercial kennel inspectors! (and some more food industry inspectors in general I think would also be good.)
The craze to own a pure bred dog for the most part started after WWII. Yes, the AKC did ride a wave of popularity and increased registrations. Though there were many large scale show kennels in existance before this started, they mainly specialized in a single breed or maybe a few at most. There also were not enough of them to supply all the purebred puppies that were suddenly in demand.
Enter the US Department of Agriculture. The USDA thought that puppies made a good cash crop for farmers returning home from the war. The USDA financed low interst loans to farmers to get started in the commercial kennel business. The USDA also started liscencing commercial kennels.
The USDA continues even today to liscence and inspect commercial kennels and brokers. The USDA also continues to back loans to finance these kennels and brokers. The Hunte Corporation http://www.thehuntecorporation.com/details.aspx is today the largest of the puppy brokers. The Hunte Corporation was started with USDA backed low interest loans and that financing continues. The Hunte Corporation has received several "business of the year" type awards from the USDA.
Yes, the AKC for decades rode the gravy train of registrations that resulted from the general public's wanting of a purebred dog and the general public's feeling that AKC registration was a sign of a quality dog though it never really was. But when the AKC actually tried to do something about the poor conditions that many of the AKC registered puppies were raised in, those breeders turned away from the AKC and started their own registries. And the general public responded by not caring what registry their purebred puppies came from and buying CKC, AKC, APRI, etc registered puppies instead.
If you really want to put a dent in the large scale commercial dog breeding industry, don't look to the AKC but look to the USDA. Lobby your congressman and senators to have the USDA stop backing and guarenteeing all those low interest loans with taxpayer money. President Obama wants to spend money and create jobs - lobby him to increase the USDA's budget for more commercial kennel inspectors! (and some more food industry inspectors in general I think would also be good.)
Chocolate Covered Cherry
Actually, your original post to me talked about stating opinions. I was responding with the difference between opinions and facts. And yea, I got that you don't like the way I state anything no matter what.lilkoala3 wrote:I never took issue with any of the facts that you stated. I took issue with how you stated them.AnnOminous wrote:Then do not go by the Wikipedia entry. I only put it there because Leslie liked to quote from there before and apparently she believes what is written there.
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