Information

[Heatherj81]

Sorry this is so long.  I tried to edit it, but it's still pretty long.I've went to mostly smaller churches (100 people or less) growing up, and as an adult continuted to search out smaller churches.  I left every single one because I didn't like the people.  People were much more concerned about gossip and what people were wearing than they were about the message for the day.  DH and I were so disillusioned we just stopped going to church. Years later, we heard some really good reviews about a church from several different people.  This church has about 2000 people attending.  Yikes!  Way out of my comfort zone.  DH and I decided to give it a try.We walked through the doors and I looked over at my DH and said, "This feels like home."  We both LOVED the church.  Loved it. Fast forward to this morning.We have been doing a series on materialism and generosity.  The pastor started today saying that this sermon would be uncomfortable, he's been praying and searching for the right words (blah blah blah) and then discussed the church's finances with us.  Basically the church is operating out of savings and savings are dwindling down to nothing.  Average donation is X amount.  Can we all do more?  (more blah blah blah).  The pastor was handling this uncomfortable situation in a good way.  He had me on board.  I was already doing the mental math on what we could eliminate/cut back on from our budget to give more to the church.  Because honestly, we weren't giving what we should have been giving. Then he said, "We have givers and takers.  If you just are a taker, we need your seat."  Meaning, don't come back.  Wow.  I was gobsmacked.  I still am.  Did he just say that if you don't give money, or enough money, not to come back?  Really?I guess I'm of the mind that the people that aren't giving there is a reason.  It could be a number of reasons, but the highest on my list is they are not so sure about this whole church thing.  Telling them not to come back is not the best way to handle the situation, right?  Even if they are just selfish pricks who kick puppies and take candy from babies, isn't church a good place for them to be?  How can they be reached if the preacher just said he didn't want them there?  After he prayed and prayed about the situation, this is what he came up with?I'm sure he was just trying to make a point.  But I thought it was unnecessarily ugly.  And it's soured my take on the church.  The reason I loved going there is because of the welcoming attitude.  And today, well, this just sucked.  The pastor even acknowledged that some wouldn't be back.  In my mind I was screaming, "BECAUSE YOU TOLD THEM NOT TOOOO!!"What's your take on this?  I want to write to the church about the sermon.  But I'm waiting until I simmer down a little bit.  I'm also looking for other views.  Perhaps I'm making a mountain out of a molehill?  I'm leaning towards taking him up on his offer of not coming back. BTW, their billboard for this month says, "Church for people who don't like church."  Yeah, probably not the best timing on that one.

[Flasher]

Wow.  Based on what you posted, I'd be seriously offended.

[ScrapEgypt]

It's been YEARS since I have been a regular church-goer......but if I was sitting in that chuch on Sunday...it would be the LAST time!I would be horribly offended and I definitely think you need to speak your mind about it.When discussing the church finances - did he also indicate HOW the church was spending money?  Did he mention ways that the church plans on reducing expenses? ETA:  And if you DO decide to leave the church - don't do it in silence!   Write a letter to the minister and to the board (or whatever the governing body is) and let them know EXACTLY WHY you are leaving.

[dianagirly]

I'd be offended too.I do try to base my going to church on worshipping God and putting the other things aside... because I am a sinner too. If you feel completely uncomfortable about the leaders though... I would talk to them about it for sure! ( or write to them as you mentioned )

[Amberpony]

The letter is a good idea. Prayer before you write the letter and openness to rewrite the letter as the spirit moves you is indeed inorder. Listen to God & let him lead you.

[Heatherj81]

When discussing the church finances - did he also indicate HOW the church was spending money?  Did he mention ways that the church plans on reducing expenses?***************************************Yes, he did.  Everything is public knowledge already, but to be honest, I usually don't pay attention to that stuff.  So when he brought it to our attention I was shocked on how expensive running the church is.  The pastor's salary, and others that work there, were pretty much in line, or even lower, than what I expected.  Like I said, he had me!  I was already planning to step up our contributions.  Until he said the line about needing our seats. 

[Heatherj81]

I do try to base my going to church on worshipping God and putting the other things aside... because I am a sinner too. If you feel completely uncomfortable about the leaders though... I would talk to them about it for sure! ( or write to them as you mentioned )
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I know.  I keep trying to tell myself that.  And no church is perfect.  If I'm expecting perfection, I'm always going to be disappointed.  But today has really hurt.  I really thought we found a place to stay.

But the smaller churches I went to were horrible with the gossip.  One church even had a sermon about gossiping because it was that bad.  Then I heard gossip about who the preacher was really referring to.  LOL!

[ScrapEgypt]

It's just disappointing that the minister felt he had to put pressure on those people who don't give "enough" to either give more or leave.  As you said - there are many, many reasons people may not be able to give more. ETA - (since I can't seem to get all my thoughts down at one time!) - it may just be that the people who CAN"T give more are the very people who might need the church community the MOST!

[Heatherj81]

The letter is a good idea. Prayer before you write the letter and openness to rewrite the letter as the spirit moves you is indeed inorder. Listen to God & let him lead you.
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I'm trying not to make any rash decisions on this.  I'm going to mull it over for a few days.  I'm not even sure what I would write.  He *knew* what he said would upset people...to the point that they wouldn't come back.  And he said it anyway.  So I feel like a letter wouldn't be worth writing.

[Judes]

Sounds to me like he put his foot in his mouth big time and needs to apologize publically big time.  It was a BIG mistake, IMO.  He'll have a long hard time of it living this down.

[Northern Brat]

If you really like it there (up until now)  why don't you write him a letter, or talk to him, or even call him, and say what is on your mind...maybe he'd make an apology to the church, and that might be a way to start over...or..it might generate more from the others that were there.I don't know.... I would be offended...and I think he needs to know that he was inappropiate..Good luck.

[rebajane]

II would be upset. I'd also hate to give up a church I really liked. I'd talk to him face to face and see what he had to say. Is he really that desperate pay up or get out....maybe he was aiming at a particular group of people. Still that is so totally wrong....did he read the story of the fishes or did he just not understand it....Hello. I really think I would speak with him in person,see what he has to say ....go from there. Sorry this happened to you. Nothing like being disillusioned by the church.

[VicOfCanada]

Finances must have been the topic of the day. Our minister discussed it too and said that a study was done and only 25% of our church was tithing regularly (by tithing he meant giving 10 % of their gross income). He firmly said if you werent giving your 10% then you couldnt be part of the church. Too me they should be happy if you give what you can afford to give. Church should be more then the finances but the is my opinion.Vickie

[moodyonceamth]

I was just watching a story on tithing.  Do you know there are many bible historians who say the tithe is just a ruse?  There was no offering in churches until the mid to late 1800s, which is when the tithe came about.  Until then churches were supported with taxes (before the revolution) and then by selling or renting pews!I left the catholic church for exactly the same reason.  If you weren't using your pre-printed envelopes so they could tell how much you were giving, your name was going to be removed from the rolls. 

[TheFiberLady]

you know what? i'm pretty sure that god opens his arms to all people, i can't even believe what i read above, that is just sick, because i don't think god would turn anyone away.

[ScrapEgypt]

Vickie - I can't believe your minister said the same thing.     So - according to these guys - if you can't afford to give 10%, then you are no longer welcome in their churches??????   I know times are tough for everyone....but jeez......what kind of attitude is that?????    Wow .....wow......wow.....

[Heatherj81]

In fairness to our pastor, he was talking about people that can give, but don't.  Not people that can't give period.But another church basically said the same thing?  Just wow.  I always thought church was for everyone, not just perfect people.Maybe church just isn't our thing.   Right now, we are doing a series called "Consumed."  Forty churches in our area are doing the series.  Maybe it's a series that a lot of churches in the US and Canada are doing.

[Wendy-Gale]

I understand churches need money to have the doors open BUT I know Jesus would NEVER tell a poor man to leave.

[4peasinourpod]

If it were me, I would go talk to him.  I would say exactly what you said...that he had you until that sentence.  Ask him to explain.  He needs to know that people (you ) would have stayed and given...but now you may leave.  So...his speech up until that one sentence was working...and then, with one comment, he is turning away the very people who WOULD have given more.Sadly, the people that he WANTS to give more, aren't going to, no matter how many speeches he gives.  They won't give up their seats, either.  So that one sentence gives him 2 strikes.If you like the church...talk to him.  You deserve a personal answer if you are paying for the church. 

[FurBaby_Mom]

I've been thinking about this one......my uncle is a minister and we've talked several times about 'giving'.  It kind of is a lost art in that this generation wasn't necessarily raised in church.  People don't give like they used to and churches are in crisis because of it.  Matt and I searched long and hard for the church where we are now.  And, in fact, we joined last week and had a conversation about this with the pastor.  On an unrelated note, he gave a great sermon and Matt was telling him what his impression of it was.  Pastor John said, 'You never know how your words will reach other people.  You have an idea and it isn't always conveyed."  Obviously semantics are really important.  My hunch is that he didn't mean it like it sounded.On a loose level....I agree with him.  Christianity is about taking action.  You can go through the motions and sit there in church every week, but do nothing once you leave.  You have to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.  Our church has been challenging us to become involved on a deeper level.  Don't just sit there in church because, to truly live like Jesus, you have to get involved - Our church is big on social justice.  My hunch is that that's more where he was going and he just didn't convey it correctly.I'm really picky about churches and if I feel like they're after my money, I won't go.  Since it sounds like you really like it otherwise, I'd just drop him an email and let him know your thoughts.  I'll bet he didn't mean it that way.Just as an added note, though....churches are in serious crisis.  In a "me, me, me" world it's hard for them to survive.